Furlong Colony 1: Engels on Authority: Interesting Excerpts
F U R L O N G C O L O N Y 1
A sporadic update of the important effects unfolding in Furlong Colony 1.

Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Engels on Authority: Interesting Excerpts

1. "On examining the economic, industrial and agricultural conditions which form the basis of present-day bourgeois society, we find that they tend more and more to replace isolated action by combined action of individuals. Modern industry, with its big factories and mills, where hundreds of workers supervise complicated machines driven by steam, has superseded the small workshops of the separate producers; the carriages and wagons of the highways have become substituted by railway trains, just as the small schooners and sailing feluccas have been by steam-boats. Even agriculture falls increasingly under the dominion of the machine and of steam, which slowly but relentlessly put in the place of the small proprietors big capitalists, who with the aid of hired workers cultivate vast stretches of land.

Everywhere combined action, the complication of processes dependent upon each other, displaces independent action by individuals. But whoever mentions combined action speaks of organisation; now, is it possible to have organisation without authority?"

2. "Let us take by way if example a cotton spinning mill. The cotton must pass through at least six successive operations before it is reduced to the state of thread, and these operations take place for the most part in different rooms. Furthermore, keeping the machines going requires an engineer to look after the steam engine, mechanics to make the current repairs, and many other labourers whose business it is to transfer the products from one room to another, and so forth. All these workers, men, women and children, are obliged to begin and finish their work at the hours fixed by the authority of the steam, which cares nothing for individual autonomy. The workers must, therefore, first come to an understanding on the hours of work; and these hours, once they are fixed, must be observed by all, without any exception. Thereafter particular questions arise in each room and at every moment concerning the mode of production, distribution of material, etc., which must be settled by decision of a delegate placed at the head of each branch of labour or, if possible, by a majority vote, the will of the single individual will always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled in an authoritarian way. The automatic machinery of the big factory is much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the portals of these factories: Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate! [Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]

If man, by dint of his knowledge and inventive genius, has subdued the forces of nature, the latter avenge themselves upon him by subjecting him, in so far as he employs them, to a veritable despotism independent of all social organisation. Wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry is tantamount to wanting to abolish industry itself, to destroy the power loom in order to return to the spinning wheel."

3. "But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.

When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world."


This is basically my view on authority. Sometimes it is needed. You should also note that Engels was pro-factory/industry. He wanted factory production to continue.

29 comments:

Josh said...

Sooo...the point?

Chris said...

I think the most obvious point is politics. Big business is more like government in its internal structure and is therefore more likely to use government to its advantage. Your position is thus the small producer's/tradesperson's/small business person's outlook.

Josh said...

"Big business is more like government in its internal structure"

Indeed, which is why big business have a hard time competing against smaller, more flexible competitors.

MS is gleaming example of what happens to big companies, and why monopolies in the private sector never last. Dell is now selling computers running Ubuntu. People are constantly turning to other browsers. Mac is gaining market share in the consumer market. OpenOffice's newest edition experienced so many downloads when it was released their site crashed.

Unfortunately, when anything dares compete with government, government shuts it down. For example, there was a private company that privately sold and trade silver and gold coins. They had essentially 25-30 million dollars worth in rotation in the US. Mostly just collectors. The FBI raided all of their locations, took their inventory and shut them down without specifying which law they broke and still have not been brought to trial.

Chris said...

"Indeed, which is why big business have a hard time competing against smaller, more flexible competitors."

Again, you ain't reading and ain't thinking. As Engels pointed out, capitalist production tends toward extremely complex, highly coordinated production facilities called factories, which means the little guy is going to have a tough time competing when factory production is a prerequisite of selling a product.

"MS is gleaming example of what happens to big companies, and why monopolies in the private sector never last."

Microsoft controls over 90% of the operating system market. If that is not a monopoly, I don't know what is!

"Dell is now selling computers running Ubuntu."

Have you used Ubuntu? It sucks.

"People are constantly turning to other browsers."

No one buys browsers, so they are basically irrelevant to this conversation.

"Mac is gaining market share in the consumer market."

In 2003 MS controlled 98% of the market, so maybe MAC has made some real gains. Course, that doesn't mean MS is not a monopoly nor will stop being one. Monopolies last for decades before receding and existed well before big government.

The problem here is your philosophy, Josh. You picked the first outlook that seemed to make sense and now treat it as the Truth. Only someone who has honestly allowed the different ideologies play is responsible politically.

Josh said...

"capitalist production tends toward extremely complex, highly coordinated production facilities called factories, which means the little guy is going to have a tough time competing when factory production is a prerequisite of selling a product."

Indeed. I can't just pull an idea out of my ass and start producing it. I need build a plan and sell it to people with capital who can invest in it.

"Microsoft controls over 90% of the operating system market. If that is not a monopoly, I don't know what is!"

Its not 90% anymore and its continually dropping. MS has gained any market share in 15 years and have been steadily losing it.

"Have you used Ubuntu? It sucks."

I used xubuntu, very functional.

"Only someone who has honestly allowed the different ideologies play is responsible politically."

Depends on your end goal. My end goal would be for individuals to enjoy freedom while they are alivr. Your end goal is to take from some to give to other in order to somehow provide an equal quality of life for all. There is no way for me reconcile the two or concede a part of this philosophy without conceding the entire philosophy.

I have no problem with the government paying for health care for the poor if they have the funds to do so. Better that than buying bombs. I just have a problem with myself and others being robbed for it.

Chris said...

"Indeed. I can't just pull an idea out of my ass and start producing it. I need build a plan and sell it to people with capital who can invest in it."

Which means that the free market of small producers is a myth.

"Its not 90% anymore and its continually dropping. MS has gained any market share in 15 years and have been steadily losing it."

http://windowsitpro.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=40481&DisplayTab=Article

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9106098

So, its okay-dokey if a corporation has a monopoly for 13 years or so and it is okay if entire markets are oligarchic. But that's okay for people who ignore reality in favor of their ideology!

"I used xubuntu, very functional."

I use it and it sucks compared to XP.

"Depends on your end goal. My end goal would be for individuals to enjoy freedom while they are alivr. Your end goal is to take from some to give to other in order to somehow provide an equal quality of life for all. There is no way for me reconcile the two or concede a part of this philosophy without conceding the entire philosophy."

You missed the point. You can only say what you just said because you are not responsible. You have not honestly contemplated anything else other that free-market libertarianism.

"I have no problem with the government paying for health care for the poor if they have the funds to do so. Better that than buying bombs. I just have a problem with myself and others being robbed for it."

Sorry, taxes are not robbery. The people voted for it.

Chris said...

That's the problem with ideologues. They are too scared to think beyond their religion. If they give in one point, they think they have to give it all up. Retards. Such a position is the exact opposite of rational thought, science, and philosophy.

Josh said...

"Which means that the free market of small producers is a myth."

Not at all.

"You can only say what you just said because you are not responsible. You have not honestly contemplated anything else other that free-market libertarianism."

Yes I have. You had me thinking left-wing for the majority of my young life.

"Sorry, taxes are not robbery. The people voted for it."

Sooooo if everyone thinks its ok to steal, then its ok?

Douglas Porter said...

"Not at all."

Yes at all. Factories will always produce a cheaper product. It's a fact.

"Yes I have. You had me thinking left-wing for the majority of my young life."

Liberalism is not left-wing, and I don't remember having arguments like these with you. Therefore, you have taken up the first argument YOU have investigated. It is irresponsible.

"Sooooo if everyone thinks its ok to steal, then its ok?"

Nope. It's democracy. Remeber, if you go further on this line it leads to anarchism. Either you are for taxes or not. You can not just be selectively for taxes that support the constitution and protect private property, but against others, because could easily say that taxes used to protect private property are stealing as well.

Douglas Porter said...

So, Josh, and adding to the growing body of points that you have not answered: Do you think taxes are still stealing?

Josh said...

"Yes at all. Factories will always produce a cheaper product. It's a fact."

That doesn't mean the free market doesn't exist for small producers.

"It's democracy"

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner.

"Either you are for taxes or not."

I'm against imposed taxes on income. Local governments protect private property through funds retrieved via property taxes.

Josh said...

"Do you think taxes are still stealing?"

A federal income tax is stealing. A sales tax, such as the GST, or a carbon tax is not stealing.

Douglas Porter said...

I see no difference. You are merely shifting the stealing to another method of taxing.

Josh said...

Its not stealing if I understand as part of a purchase I have to pay a percentage to a government. I make the choice to pay that to the government, therefore I'm giving it to the government. By taxing my income, the government gives me no choice.

Douglas Porter said...

"Its not stealing if I understand as part of a purchase I have to pay a percentage to a government. I make the choice to pay that to the government, therefore I'm giving it to the government. By taxing my income, the government gives me no choice."

Sorry, Josh! I can't choose to not buy stuff in the long-run, and as soon as I buy something, I DON'T WANT TO PAY TAXES, BECAUSE I THINK IT IS STEALING!

You see, your argument is silly and should be discarded as such. One way or another you are going to pay a tax you have NO choice but to pay at that moment.

Josh said...

"you have NO choice but to pay at that moment."

Yes, I can choose not to buy that camera.

Douglas Porter said...

No, but you can't choose not to buying anything! Hello!

Josh said...

Well, perhaps, although if you work really hard at it you could get pretty close. At least I can choose how much I buy. The point is that its not taken from me without my decision to buy. The income tax is the government telling me they are allowing me to keep 80% - 70%. A sales tax is me saying, ok, I can't grow all my own food, so I agree to pay a 5% sales tax in order to buy groceries. Though, if I chose to starve, I could and chose not to give the government that 5%.

Douglas Porter said...

"Though, if I chose to starve, I could and chose not to give the government that 5%."

No, choice.

Josh said...

Nope, its still a choice.

Douglas Porter said...

I totally disagree. I can not choose to stop buying stuff that I need.

Josh said...

You can. AND you can also choose to stop buying stuff that you don't need.

Douglas Porter said...

How, Josh? How do you choose to not buy what you need?

Josh said...

You trade with someone else for it...you make it yourself...you suffer. It is still a choice and that is what is important.

Douglas Porter said...

"You trade with someone else for it..."

By law you'd have to pay tax.

"you make it yourself..."

With what materials?

"you suffer. It is still a choice and that is what is important."

Nope, not a choice. You are merely shifting over one degree. In the end, you still don't choose.

Josh said...

"With what materials?"

Materials you find MacGyver.

You should look up the meaning of the word "choice".

Douglas Porter said...

Choice does not include need. You do not choose to need.

Josh said...

"Needs" are not definable.

Chris said...

I need water to survive. DEFINABLE>

 
F U R L O N G C O L O N Y 1
A sporadic update of the important events unfolding in Furlong Colony 1.