Stop & Shop spokeswoman Faith Weiner said that all 240 stores in the three states would remain open this week. As part of a strike contingency plan, Stop & Shop has placed help-wanted ads in newspapers. Weiner declined to discuss details of the negotiations.
“We’re disappointed that they took this action and remain committed to negotiating at the bargaining table to reach a positive conclusion,’’ said Weiner.
Carvalho said the strike vote occurred after company negotiators insisted that union workers increase contributions to their health insurance and pension plans. He said the company also has been unwilling to give annual wage increases and wants employees to accept bonuses instead. Carvalho would not say how much of a health premium increase the company sought.
“Our members are frustrated with the company’s negative approach to negotiations,’’ said Carvalho. “At a time when Stop & Shop profits are increasing, it’s disappointing to our members that they would ask them to pay more and not receive any wage increases.’’
The Quincy-based Stop & Shop is owned by Ahold USA. In its last earnings report, the company announced that net sales at Stop & Shop and Giant-Landover had increased 10.5 percent to $4.4 billion.
Company profits rose 10.5%, but they are asking for concessions. The race to the bottom continues!
64 comments:
And then the rest of the story:
"However, after interest resulting from its 1988 leveraged buyout, and taxes, the Boston-based operator of 118 Stop & Shop supermarkets and 130 Bradlees Discount Department Stores reported a net loss.
For the quarter ended Nov. 9, Stop & Shop lost $400,000, or 1 cent a share, on sales of $1.12 billion, compared with a net loss of $6.7 million, or 20 cents a share, on sales of $1.10 billion last year. Third-quarter…"
The company is offering a bonus structure instead of wage increases. RIM did the same for us last year. In the unpredictable economic climate caused by our governments, businesses are unsure of future revenues and have to resort to restructuring compensation to employees.
Whether you give me a cost of living increase as a pay raise or a bonus what is the real difference?
Like you say, if we had sound money, not going down in purchase power every year, this would not be an issue.
Corporations are as guilty as government for supporting this system and should be forced by law to pay at least a cost of living pay raise. I am sure not one of thier high level corporate managers are suffering as much as the frontline employee.
Ironically the so called cost of living index in NS went down 2% last year.
I have yet to meet anyone who can tell me they are living 2% cheaper than last year.
This is the disease of capitalism.
"Ironically the so called cost of living index in NS went down 2% last year.
I have yet to meet anyone who can tell me they are living 2% cheaper than last year."
Government numbers are a fraud.
Anyway, the difference in regard to a bonus or a pay raise is significant. The raise occurs sooner and puts the money in the hand of the employee sooner, while prices are lower. So there is a disadvantage here to the employee.
However, from the standpoint of the bottom line for a corporation, its beneficial. By removing annual raises a company avoids a significant increase in their costs and keeps the profit margins healthier, lowering a risk losses that might occur if sales dip. If sales don't dip, then the company makes up not providing the raise by providing a bonus based on already accumulated revenue. Its a strategy that makes sense for a business to adopt when working through a period of uncertainty, like right now.
Stop & Shop has suffered through at least two years of significant losses. No surprise they're not giving into employees demands. From the perspective of their board and investors, if they can't obtain an agreement with the union that is workable, they might decide to liquidate and invest their money else where so that they can earn profit and provide a service/good society is demanding more of than a convenient store. This is how the market reallocates capital; and this is how over-powered unions destroy jobs.
"Corporations are as guilty as government for supporting this system and should be forced by law to pay at least a cost of living pay raise."
Wow, you just ran around in circles there....
Corporations are as guilty as government of supporting the system the government implements, so the government (who implements the system) should force the corporations by law (because they support the system implemented by government) to pay a cost of living wage increase (which supports the bad system the government implemented; and of course corporations would need to be punished again for supporting.......yadda yadda yadda. See the problem here?
"The company is offering a bonus structure instead of wage increases. RIM did the same for us last year. In the unpredictable economic climate caused by our governments, businesses are unsure of future revenues and have to resort to restructuring compensation to employees."
http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/18/blackberry-shipments-break-record-in-q3-rim-profits-jump-59-per/
No, sorry, Josh, it is part of a coordinated effort to destroy the gains made by workers. RIM is not hurting, but since you guys don't have a union, and are basically retarded, you gave in to obvious rhetoric without thinking. ;)
Jim Riley, who represents Stop & Shop workers in Rhode Island, labeled the recruitment effort "bad theater."
"This thing blew up in their faces," Riley said.
Riley is secretary-treasurer of the UFCW's Local 328, which represents 11,500 Stop & Shop workers in Rhode Island, Massachusetts and two towns in eastern Connecticut. Four other locals are covered by the contract, which expires Feb. 20.
The locals include: Local 371 and Local 919, both in Connecticut; Local 1459, in western Massachusetts, and Local 1445, in Boston.
"They irritated our members by placing these ads; that was dumb and stupid," Petronella said.
The ads offer jobs paying hourly rates, $15 for full-time work, $12 for part-time, higher than what some union members make for the same jobs, Riley said.
"The company is in a renaissance right now," Riley said, referring to Stop & Shop's parent -- Netherlands-based Royal Ahold NV. "Their stock is up, their market share is up and they're building new stores."
The supermarket operator in January reported fourth-quarter revenues above the expectations of Wall Street analysts.
Stop & Shop hired "temporary" workers amid contract talks in 2007, Weiner said, though Riley didn't recall that happening."
"However, after interest resulting from its 1988 leveraged buyout, and taxes, the Boston-based operator of 118 Stop & Shop supermarkets and 130 Bradlees Discount Department Stores reported a net loss."
This crap is meaningless without a detailed history of S&S's profit history. As usual, I'm pretty sure the profits were up just before the economic crisis, because I know that corps and comps like to use a crisis to force unions to make civilization destroying concessions. Though, I must say, I am glad you have shown your real colors, and are now defending corporations.
"Whether you give me a cost of living increase as a pay raise or a bonus what is the real difference?"
The difference is that a pay raise is paid weekly, while a bonus is paid at the end of the year IF the company decides to pay it. If they are contracted to pay it, then it is horrible, because those workers don't get paid much in the first place. They need the money on a weekly basis.
But I guess a guy making a steady weekly income would not understand that!
"Government numbers are a fraud."
Please don't believe assertions of what is or isn't fact. They are worse than lies.
"However, from the standpoint of the bottom line for a corporation, its beneficial. By removing annual raises a company avoids a significant increase in their costs and keeps the profit margins healthier, lowering a risk losses that might occur if sales dip. If sales don't dip, then the company makes up not providing the raise by providing a bonus based on already accumulated revenue. Its a strategy that makes sense for a business to adopt when working through a period of uncertainty, like right now."
And this is why, folks, RIM had such an easy time making this change. It's employees are morons.
Anyway, what Josh is saying is that a bonus is paid at the discretion of the company, whereas the effects of a raise are paid every week. Therefore, it is a affront to the working class that economic calamity is USED to lower its living standard, all the while getting support from the brain-washed youth. How did they do this? 40 years of propaganda and pay-offs.
"Stop & Shop has suffered through at least two years of significant losses. No surprise they're not giving into employees demands. From the perspective of their board and investors, if they can't obtain an agreement with the union that is workable, they might decide to liquidate and invest their money else where so that they can earn profit and provide a service/good society is demanding more of than a convenient store. This is how the market reallocates capital; and this is how over-powered unions destroy jobs."
OBVIOUSLY THEY WERE NOT PROFITING DURING THE RECESSION, JOSH. MOST COMPANIES WERE NOT PROFITING DURING THE RECESSION. THAT< HOWEVER< DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO ERODE CIVILIZATION FOR THEIR OWN SHORT-TERM PROFIT, ESPECIALLY WHEN TEEY HAVE BEEN EXPANDING AS A STORE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS AND ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO "LIQUIDATE".
Going to business school is the equivalent to getting a lobotomy, lol.
"Corporations are as guilty as government of supporting the system the government implements, so the government (who implements the system) should force the corporations by law (because they support the system implemented by government) to pay a cost of living wage increase (which supports the bad system the government implemented; and of course corporations would need to be punished again for supporting.......yadda yadda yadda. See the problem here?"
Yeah, it is a pretty stupid argument. What is needed is a clear view of what is happening. Stop & Shop has been expanding at least since 1995. YOU CAN'T EXPAND WITHOUT PROFITS. It's problems over the last two years, as everyone knows, was due to the recession. Many types of companies do not profit during a recession. It is not the workers' fault. Some companies use the recession as an excuse to lower wages. Stop & Shop and RIM are these types of companies. They are the types of companies that move their workers to China to pay a slave wage. THAT is what is happening here.
If concerned citizens want this crap to stop, they'll need to elect politicians that will make the domestic production of all goods mandatory by enacting a law similar to what keeps Toyota in America.
These same citizens will tirelessly argue against the self-defeating insanity that is coming out of our business schools. Those brainwashed into believing that it is in their best interests to concede must be argued down at every turn.
"No, sorry, Josh, it is part of a coordinated effort to destroy the gains made by workers. RIM is not hurting, but since you guys don't have a union, and are basically retarded, you gave in to obvious rhetoric without thinking. ;)"
Lol. Noone said RIM is hurting. After the economic collapse suffered in the US though, it was hard to make projections for the oncoming year. Foregoing annual raises for year allowed RIM to ensure their profit margins would stay positive to attract investors, and at the same time, THANK GOD THEIR SALES DIDN'T DIP, because my potential bonus this year is twice what I typically would have gotten and will more than make up for any lost raise last year. See Chris, the bonus structure is partly based on RIM performance; the better the performance, the better the bonus. Idiot.
"Though, I must say, I am glad you have shown your real colors, and are now defending corporations."
Well, see, I understand that individuals work for corporations and a corporation isn't just run by a big bad monster. The corporation has to make a certain profit margin in order for it to be worth while for capital investment, if it doesn't, the investors pull out and then there's no jobs at all. We're going to start seeing this more and more and corporations start feeling the crunch all over the United States. They won't be able to afford the wage increase demands from unions because their revenues are increase like they used to. You want to help buddy making $8/hr? Stop inflating the currency.
"If they are contracted to pay it, then it is horrible, because those workers don't get paid much in the first place. They need the money on a weekly basis.
But I guess a guy making a steady weekly income would not understand that!"
Yes, its unfortunate the government has mucked up the economy so much that corporations can't create reliable year-over-year sales projections and have to restructure how they compensate employees in a way that is less beneficial to the employee.
"Please don't believe assertions of what is or isn't fact. They are worse than lies."
We are told there is no inflation. Yes the price of food is going up, the price of electricity is going up, the price of gas is going up, the price of everything is going up, we all see it, but the government tells us it isn't happening soooo I guess its all just an illusion?
"And this is why, folks, RIM had such an easy time making this change. It's employees are morons."
RIM had an easy time making this change because they treat their employees fairly, they pay them above average wages, and the follow through with what they tell us. You think 12000 people wouldn't be up in arms if we weren't being compensated fairly?
By the way, calling me a moron, doesn't counter my point, which you haven't done, because you're a moron.
"Anyway, what Josh is saying is that a bonus is paid at the discretion of the company, whereas the effects of a raise are paid every week. Therefore, it is a affront to the working class that economic calamity is USED to lower its living standard, all the while getting support from the brain-washed youth. How did they do this? 40 years of propaganda and pay-offs."
Lol, thats not an argument. Who is the working class anyway? Raises were frozen across the entire company...so is my director...who works...one of these working class individuals getting screwed over by the evil capitalists who run RIM like...well...himself? Do you think there's only youth that work at RIM? LOL The majority of people I work with have worked in unions before AND NONE OF THEM WOULD GO BACK. HAVE YOU EVER WORKED IN A UNION? NOPE. So how about you talk about something you know about.
Do you think Poly Cello doesn't unionize because of propaganda? NOPE. They don't unionize because most people know someone who has worked in a union and they were MISERABLE.
As well, raises are just as discretionary as the bonuses AS MANAGEMENT HAS FULL PREROGATIVE OVER BOTH. And whether or not I continue to work for my employer is to MY discretion.
"Anyway, what Josh is saying is that a bonus is paid at the discretion of the company, whereas the effects of a raise are paid every week. Therefore, it is a affront to the working class that economic calamity is USED to lower its living standard, all the while getting support from the brain-washed youth. How did they do this? 40 years of propaganda and pay-offs."
Lol, thats not an argument. Who is the working class anyway? Raises were frozen across the entire company...so is my director...who works...one of these working class individuals getting screwed over by the evil capitalists who run RIM like...well...himself? Do you think there's only youth that work at RIM? LOL The majority of people I work with have worked in unions before AND NONE OF THEM WOULD GO BACK. HAVE YOU EVER WORKED IN A UNION? NOPE. So how about you talk about something you know about.
Do you think Poly Cello doesn't unionize because of propaganda? NOPE. They don't unionize because most people know someone who has worked in a union and they were MISERABLE.
As well, raises are just as discretionary as the bonuses AS MANAGEMENT HAS FULL PREROGATIVE OVER BOTH. And whether or not I continue to work for my employer is to MY discretion.
"OBVIOUSLY THEY WERE NOT PROFITING DURING THE RECESSION, JOSH. MOST COMPANIES WERE NOT PROFITING DURING THE RECESSION. THAT< HOWEVER< DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO ERODE CIVILIZATION FOR THEIR OWN SHORT-TERM PROFIT, ESPECIALLY WHEN TEEY HAVE BEEN EXPANDING AS A STORE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS AND ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO "LIQUIDATE".
Going to business school is the equivalent to getting a lobotomy, lol."
Meh, Business school is pretty much as useless as any arts degree.
And Yes, they will liquidate, or even go bankrupt if they have to. They're obviously quite leveraged if interest payments on loans the purchase the company are what are pushing them in red ink.
Noone says they have a right to erode civilization, but a business isn't greedy simply because they refuse to increase benefits and raise wages while they're losing money. That's just idiotic.
"Stop & Shop and RIM are these types of companies. They are the types of companies that move their workers to China to pay a slave wage. THAT is what is happening here."
RIM never lowered wages, and neither did Stop & Shop actually. Hmmm their expansion has been financed by loans which investors have been willing to risking taking on..resulting in more jobs for more people. The interest from the loans push Stop & Shop into the red, so the union wants to force wages and benefits higher, which will no doubt for Stop & Shop to close its less profitable stores and lay off employees.....
It'll be like the great depression all over again, high worthless wages and 25% unemployment!
"If concerned citizens want this crap to stop, they'll need to elect politicians that will make the domestic production of all goods mandatory by enacting a law similar to what keeps Toyota in America."
YES! MORE PROTECTIONISM! THAT HAS A HISTORY OF WORKING!!! WOO-HOO!! Trade wars never end up becoming real wars! NEVER!
Of course, the reality of the world today is that noone wants to piss of China because as the US declines, countries like Canada need to sell our resources to the growing Chinese economy. The US might try to piss China off, but that will just be the pinnacle of the piss poor American foreign policy over the past 60 years.
"Those brainwashed into believing that it is in their best interests to concede must be argued down at every turn."
See Chris, I haven't learned a goddamn thing in business school. I learn enough to get a decent mark and after my final exam, I forget about it.
One class I did learn something about business was accounting. As boring as it was, it helped me understand how cash flows through a business. It further supports my understanding of MONEY. I know, you hate money and think we should go back to barter and trade; or even abolish private property all together...somehow...but for now money exists and people work in their self interest to obtain it. Thankfully, the way the world works, is that when two people like Jim Balsillie and Mike Lazardis work their asses off for a decade obtaining millions of dollars of investment to development a product they work hard to sell all over the world just so that they can get more money, then end up creating well paying jobs for 12,000 people..WOW! talk about greed. I guess that's why when we find out 6 months before our annual raise that instead, we're gonna get double the bonus the next year, noone really gets that upset. Its not because we're gullible, or ignorant. Its because we know where the money is coming from, we know whats happening in the world, and we know how competitive the market is.
Any day Jim and Mike could sell RIM off to microsoft for $50/share and go buy and island and live out the rest of their days. Hell, that's what I would do. But thats probably why I'm where I am and these evil capitalists are where they are. I fuckin hope RIM is packed full of managers that love money. I hope they savor every penny they can get their grubby little hands on. The more money they can make, the more BBs they can sell, the more jobs they can create, and the more money I will make. People benefit from greed in a voluntary society. Get over it.
The greed people don't benefit from is when cash is stolen away from people by governments and corrupt union bureaucracies.
"Lol. Noone said RIM is hurting. After the economic collapse suffered in the US though, it was hard to make projections for the oncoming year. Foregoing annual raises for year allowed RIM to ensure their profit margins would stay positive to attract investors, and at the same time, THANK GOD THEIR SALES DIDN'T DIP, because my potential bonus this year is twice what I typically would have gotten and will more than make up for any lost raise last year. See Chris, the bonus structure is partly based on RIM performance; the better the performance, the better the bonus. Idiot."
Lol, and you had to wait 2 years to get it. Now, at your income level that might be okay, but at the income level of a Stop & Shop employee that is a big hit. Moreover, you have given the power of payment to the corporation. If they want, they don't have to pay you. It is a precedent that will come back to haunt each and every single RIM employee. Mark my words.
"Well, see, I understand that individuals work for corporations and a corporation isn't just run by a big bad monster. The corporation has to make a certain profit margin in order for it to be worth while for capital investment, if it doesn't, the investors pull out and then there's no jobs at all. We're going to start seeing this more and more and corporations start feeling the crunch all over the United States. They won't be able to afford the wage increase demands from unions because their revenues are increase like they used to. You want to help buddy making $8/hr? Stop inflating the currency."
Lol, in other words: it is okay if corporations pay slave wages.
"Yes, its unfortunate the government has mucked up the economy so much that corporations can't create reliable year-over-year sales projections and have to restructure how they compensate employees in a way that is less beneficial to the employee."
The corporations controlled the government. There is no "The Government". The jobs crisis and economic crisis are the result of the deregulation and wage slavery the culmination of 50 years of corporate propaganda funds being pumped into the political process.
"
We are told there is no inflation. Yes the price of food is going up, the price of electricity is going up, the price of gas is going up, the price of everything is going up, we all see it, but the government tells us it isn't happening soooo I guess its all just an illusion?"
Show it.
"RIM had an easy time making this change because they treat their employees fairly, they pay them above average wages, and the follow through with what they tell us. You think 12000 people wouldn't be up in arms if we weren't being compensated fairly? "
I think the 12,000 people there are young, indoctrinated with Randianism and Von Misesism. I think they are not really thinking through what they gave up so easily. I don't think they are thinking about the precedent.
"By the way, calling me a moron, doesn't counter my point, which you haven't done, because you're a moron."
That might be true, moron, but it sure does focus my writing more and gets rid of excess irritation. Calling you a moron is a lot like putting moisturizer onto an irritated patch of skin.
"On 18 August 2009, Fortune Magazine named RIM as the fastest growing company in the world with a growth of 84% in profits over three years despite the recession."
It is pretty sweet that RIM is so forward-looking. When the profits inevitably drop, and they still have to hire employees, they'll be able to reduce bonuses and pay increases by paying lower bonuses. It is brilliant just how far seeing these guys are!
"Lol, thats not an argument. Who is the working class anyway?"
Anyone paid wages who has something to do with the production process. There are, therefore, primary workers who directly produce products, and secondary workers who deal with its distribution. You are a tertiary worker, because you work for a company that does not make something that satisfies need.
"Raises were frozen across the entire company...so is my director...who works...one of these working class individuals getting screwed over by the evil capitalists who run RIM like...well...himself?"
Managers are middle class. They are not capitalists.
"Do you think there's only youth that work at RIM?"
Yes, that's right. By youth I mean those who were affected by the Reagan philosophy of the early 80s.
"LOL The majority of people I work with have worked in unions before AND NONE OF THEM WOULD GO BACK. HAVE YOU EVER WORKED IN A UNION? NOPE. So how about you talk about something you know about."
Of course they don't want to work for a union. A union is stressful because the profit margin is much lower, because the product being made is necessary and usually highly competitive. Mobile phones are not a necessary product. The unions members have to protect their wages, which causes stress, because they know that they company is allowed to pay slave wages in China at any time. I know I wouldn't want to work for a union. That sort of stress is too great.
"Do you think Poly Cello doesn't unionize because of propaganda? NOPE. They don't unionize because most people know someone who has worked in a union and they were MISERABLE."
They don't unionize because Poly Cello pays higher wages and offers many hours. That is a fact. If Poly Cello offered lower wages, it might be a little different. I hear they are making about 30,000 base pay. Considering that Toyota workers are making about 50,000 that is not bad.
"As well, raises are just as discretionary as the bonuses AS MANAGEMENT HAS FULL PREROGATIVE OVER BOTH."
Nope. A union forces the company to incur huge negotiation, rehiring, and retraining costs if they fire all the unionized employees.
"And whether or not I continue to work for my employer is to MY discretion."
Wow, you are so free. ;)
"And Yes, they will liquidate, or even go bankrupt if they have to."
But they don't have to, because they were profiting before the recession.
"They're obviously quite leveraged if interest payments on loans the purchase the company are what are pushing them in red ink."
Leveraged by other companies, yes.
It is only the recession that is pushing them into the "red ink", Josh, not the leverage.
"Noone says they have a right to erode civilization, but a business isn't greedy simply because they refuse to increase benefits and raise wages while they're losing money. That's just idiotic."
Yes, it is. They were profiting well before the recession. They had opened scores of stores.
This is the same argument we were in before. The car companies suffered from the double whammy. Stop & Shop is suffering from its own double whammy: leverage and the recession.
This double whammy is not the workers' fault.
"RIM never lowered wages,"
Yes they did. They lowered the wages of future years when demand for the Blackberry is not as great. Lower profits means lower bonuses, bonuses that can and will be below incremental wages increases over a 10 year period. You see, Josh, you have given up a lot of money by nodding your head to RIM's ideological drum.
"and neither did Stop & Shop actually."
See above.
"Hmmm their expansion has been financed by loans which investors have been willing to risking taking on..resulting in more jobs for more people."
NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
"The interest from the loans push Stop & Shop into the red,"
In the recession only.
"so the union wants to force wages and benefits higher, which will no doubt for Stop & Shop to close its less profitable stores and lay off employees....."
The workers are not responsible for the recession.
"It'll be like the great depression all over again, high worthless wages and 25% unemployment!"
LOL, no! The 15% not counted by the current unemployment rate WERE UNEMPLOYED BEFORE THE CRISIS!!!
I think this is the real cause:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_In_Motion#RIM_stock_option_scandal_settlement
"RIM's early development was financed by Canadian institutional and venture capital investors in 1995 through a private placement in the privately-held company. Working Ventures Canadian Fund Inc. led the first venture round with a $5,000,000 (CAD) investment with the proceeds being used to complete the development of RIM's two-way paging system hardware and software. A total of $30,000,000 (CAD) in pre-IPO financing was raised by the company prior to its initial public offering on the Toronto Stock Exchange in January, 1998 under the symbol RIM.[3]"
Lol, RIM is the result of government subsidies/investment. Oh, the horror!
Wow this is far btter than the global warming trp you guys fell into.
"But I guess a guy making a steady weekly income would not understand that!"
My comment was not in support of bonus vs pay raise. If the company commits to paying me $1000 more in a given year, at the end of the year whether they pay me by the week or in a lump sum it still is $1000.
My cynical side sees this as a ploy by some companies who either simply want to play financial games in deferring the payment of the money or they will set up conditions to not have to pay at the end of the year.
If they cannot afford to pay me a cost of living and have slashed the bonusus and incomes of upper management and are barely keeping the doors open then simply tell me that fact. But then do not manage the company differently. Lets see more managers on the front line, working shifts, stocking shelves, carrying groceries. Lets all go through the tough times together with CEO's and VPs rolling up their sleeves to save the company!
Or why can they not fly to Washington in their corporate jets and ask Obama to give them more money so they can give me my $1000 and they can have unspeakable bonus's.
Yes that seems right.
"Lol, RIM is the result of government subsidies/investment. Oh, the horror!"
Sorry, where is the government subsidy?
I'm not going to take the time to read through everything you've written and reply. It is simply pointless. You have a strict bias against corporations and businesses which lead you to a demonization of people who do not deserve it.
"My cynical side sees this as a ploy by some companies who either simply want to play financial games in deferring the payment of the money or they will set up conditions to not have to pay at the end of the year.
If they cannot afford to pay me a cost of living and have slashed the bonusus and incomes of upper management and are barely keeping the doors open then simply tell me that fact. But then do not manage the company differently. Lets see more managers on the front line, working shifts, stocking shelves, carrying groceries. Lets all go through the tough times together with CEO's and VPs rolling up their sleeves to save the company!
Or why can they not fly to Washington in their corporate jets and ask Obama to give them more money so they can give me my $1000 and they can have unspeakable bonus's.
Yes that seems right."
Playing "financial games" is what business do to raise capital investment to further grow and add jobs. Calling it "games" makes it sound like how a business finances itself is really unimportant. Although I do agree with your general perspective which seems to be, it depends on the situation. If RIM had reneged on the raises and didn't offer the hefty bonus we're receiving in June as a replacement while profit and subscribers continue to go, there would be something wrong with that.
basic cost of living should be mandatory and if a company cannot provide that to their employees then they should not be in business. Shareholder value should no longer be the only holy grail.
Employers do not see employees as having a vested interest but that is a misguded approach and is why there is a vast crevice between the incomes of the owners/management and their employees.
The first concern of all employers should be to their employees.
A bonus should be a bonus for work done over and above or it should be a sharing of unusual profits with all those who contributed. Not some ploy to defer merit or cost of liveing raises
Merit increases should reflect the quality of work and effort made by the individual.
Cost of living is self explanatory and should be seen as a basic requirement.
Why does the cost of living increase?
How do you determine the cost of living increase? Who determines the cost of living increase? Is a company who operates in Amherst then forced to give a cost of living increase that is less than the cost of living increase for an employee that works for a company in Toronto where inflation must by higher?
See...its completely impractical. Companies attempt to do this, which is fine, but you talk as if its black and white; either the owners and management are more concerned about shareholders or employees. But its a balancing act and its really both. Good business practice benefits shareholders which encourages investment and increases in capital which allows for expansion and further employment.
You and Chris like to throw a wedge between employees and management that doesn't exist, not in the way you guys paint the picture anyway.
"My cynical side sees this as a ploy by some companies who either simply want to play financial games in deferring the payment of the money or they will set up conditions to not have to pay at the end of the year."
Cynical? It has nothing to do with cynicism. If the number of dollars paid at the end of the year is not written into the contract, then the company has the right to pay whatever it chooses.
"Lets see more managers on the front line, working shifts, stocking shelves, carrying groceries. Lets all go through the tough times together with CEO's and VPs rolling up their sleeves to save the company!"
This has nothing to do with managers, although I can see how that would be infuriating. This has to do with getting a fair income for fair work.
"
Sorry, where is the government subsidy?
I'm not going to take the time to read through everything you've written and reply. It is simply pointless. You have a strict bias against corporations and businesses which lead you to a demonization of people who do not deserve it."
I know you won't. Followers usually don't think for themselves.
The initial start up loan for RIM was a government loan of 5 million from Working Ventures Canadian, which is a government department. This is probably why RIM has to produce a good chunk of its phones in Canada. :)
"Playing "financial games" is what business do to raise capital investment to further grow and add jobs. Calling it "games" makes it sound like how a business finances itself is really unimportant. Although I do agree with your general perspective which seems to be, it depends on the situation. If RIM had reneged on the raises and didn't offer the hefty bonus we're receiving in June as a replacement while profit and subscribers continue to go, there would be something wrong with that."
And obviously if RIM had sucked in sales, you would have gladly taken the cut. LOL, the cumulative loss you will suffer in the long-run is shocking.
"The first concern of all employers should be to their employees.
A bonus should be a bonus for work done over and above or it should be a sharing of unusual profits with all those who contributed. Not some ploy to defer merit or cost of liveing raises
Merit increases should reflect the quality of work and effort made by the individual.
Cost of living is self explanatory and should be seen as a basic requirement."
Indeed.
"How do you determine the cost of living increase? Who determines the cost of living increase? Is a company who operates in Amherst then forced to give a cost of living increase that is less than the cost of living increase for an employee that works for a company in Toronto where inflation must by higher?"
An average living costs increase based on the average inflation rate and price increase is fine. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.
"You and Chris like to throw a wedge between employees and management that doesn't exist, not in the way you guys paint the picture anyway."
The wedge does not exist right now, because wages and salaries are high enough to make it worthwhile for both parties to cooperate. But back in the 1930s, during the "Red Tide", it was not so. Wages and salaries during that period were so low as to warrant a "wedge". The tactics of Stop & Shop and "RIM" are slowly taking us back to those times.
"The initial start up loan for RIM was a government loan of 5 million from Working Ventures Canadian, which is a government department. This is probably why RIM has to produce a good chunk of its phones in Canada."
Working Ventures Canadian is not funded by tax dollars. Individuals can invest into it and can receive tax credits. That money is then used for investment in small businesses. The government should be doing more of this stuff to allow citizens to keep more of their tax dollars and promote job creation. Nowhere can I find information that its managed by the government. I found something that suggested its managed by a private investment fund, Growth Works...where do you get your info?
"And obviously if RIM had sucked in sales, you would have gladly taken the cut. LOL, the cumulative loss you will suffer in the long-run is shocking."
Or looked for a new job...what cumulative loss? Why shocking?
"An average living costs increase based on the average inflation rate and price increase is fine. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be."
Just because you're too stupid to understand the big bad complicated system, doesn't mean your over-simplification will placate me.
"The wedge does not exist right now, because wages and salaries are high enough to make it worthwhile for both parties to cooperate. But back in the 1930s, during the "Red Tide", it was not so. Wages and salaries during that period were so low as to warrant a "wedge". The tactics of Stop & Shop and "RIM" are slowly taking us back to those times."
That's just stupid. The ever-staggering increase in the income gap in the west correlates with the inflation of the money supply and is a result of a small group of individuals having the power to print the money we use. Policies by RIM and Stop & Shop are simply reactions to an piss-poor economy suffering through a mis-allocation of capital caused by our central banking system.
"Working Ventures Canadian is not funded by tax dollars. Individuals can invest into it and can receive tax credits. That money is then used for investment in small businesses. The government should be doing more of this stuff to allow citizens to keep more of their tax dollars and promote job creation. Nowhere can I find information that its managed by the government. I found something that suggested its managed by a private investment fund, Growth Works...where do you get your info?"
My mistake. :)
"Or looked for a new job...what cumulative loss? Why shocking?"
Bonuses are paid once a year. Increases in pay happen each year, accumulating on top of each other. So, if in the first year you get a 25 cent raise, and the second year you get another 25 cent raise, that is a cumulative amount of income. With a bonus, you get the same amount each year. On a pay raise system, in ten years you would be getting the benefit of 10 years of pay raises: 25 cents X 10.
"Just because you're too stupid to understand the big bad complicated system, doesn't mean your over-simplification will placate me."
It averages out. Don't make a mountain out of a few pebbles. People have been happy with cost of living pay increases based on inflation, Josh.
"That's just stupid. The ever-staggering increase in the income gap in the west correlates with the inflation of the money supply and is a result of a small group of individuals having the power to print the money we use. Policies by RIM and Stop & Shop are simply reactions to an piss-poor economy suffering through a mis-allocation of capital caused by our central banking system."
No, there are the actions of those who control the money supply, and the actions of businesses themselves. You need to be able to separate the two. Companies do not want to pay high or livable wages with benefits. That is why they moved to China to pay workers 30 cents an hour.
"You and Chris like to throw a wedge between employees and management that doesn't exist, not in the way you guys paint the picture anyway."
The wedge does exist. You would be naive to think it does not. often emplyees are only seen as another tool with a cost of operation. Most owners/managers/senior management do not consider them as more than that and under the guise of saying their people are the most important asset will begrudge their emplyees and their families a proper share of the company success.
Yes I have become very cynical about the lip service given today about how important people are and see how quickly they can be cast aside or penalized when the compnay performance is less than expected.
"This has nothing to do with managers, although I can see how that would be infuriating. This has to do with getting a fair income for fair work'
Yes it does have to do with managers. Emplyees are oftent the first to be hit when there are difficult times. Most folks would be more than happy to make a sacrifice to keep an entity operating if they sense that all in teh operation is making the sacrifice. Do not downplay the powerfull sense of community that can be gained when all elvels of heirachy join togather to sav the boat!
There may be times when benefits ned to be cut and wages frozen and bonuses slashed to keep a company solvent but all to ofetn the pain is not truly felt at all levels. This is the salt in the wound.
"Bonuses are paid once a year. Increases in pay happen each year, accumulating on top of each other. So, if in the first year you get a 25 cent raise, and the second year you get another 25 cent raise, that is a cumulative amount of income. With a bonus, you get the same amount each year. On a pay raise system, in ten years you would be getting the benefit of 10 years of pay raises: 25 cents X 10."
Yes. I understand the math. Though, no business is obligated to give raises; especially in Nova Scotia, as Dad pointed out, the government says their has been no cost of living increase.
"It averages out. Don't make a mountain out of a few pebbles. People have been happy with cost of living pay increases based on inflation, Josh."
People aren't happy when the cost living is increasing by 9% and their wage only goes up by 2%. The cost of living calculations done by government are neither accurate nor truthful. When you assume businesses should be legally binded to provided wage increase based on 1 statistic, you unfairly benefit and hurt some. Its never fair.
Of course, inflation is one of those things that nibbles at your over time and most people don't see it happening, so ya, I guess they're happy as long as they can buy that next new toy.
"Companies do not want to pay high or livable wages with benefits. That is why they moved to China to pay workers 30 cents an hour."
Companies want to stay competitive, and will make necessary adjustment to do so, otherwise they go bankrupt. From what I understand, people in China have traveled thousands of miles and left families for years to work in those factories. While it may not be a place I want to work, these individuals in China obviously do. It was the same way with our ancestors when they built our economy.
See, I don't think managers sit in their offices and think to themselves "How can I screw over the 12,000 employees in this company for my own benefit"...you do, because you're a biased fool who doesn't understand human nature. They need to keep a reasonable profit margin for the people who supply the capital, because if the investment in Nike doesn't pay off, the capital can be moved to companies where the investment does pay off. Keeping their companies alive by shifting work to China has had a huge benefit to China. Its building their middle class, capital and power is shifting to China.
Us? Well, our union workers are pissed off because companies can't afford to pay them 6 figures so that they can live in $350,000 dollar houses and drive 3 vehicles, travel to resorts and just suck up life. I'm sorry, who's greedy? Union wages are obscene and its no wonder the auto companies are moving out of the US and Canada.
"No, there are the actions of those who control the money supply, and the actions of businesses themselves. You need to be able to separate the two."
The business act in respond to those who control the money supply/credit.
I thought I already outlined this separation?
"
The wedge does exist. You would be naive to think it does not. often emplyees are only seen as another tool with a cost of operation. Most owners/managers/senior management do not consider them as more than that and under the guise of saying their people are the most important asset will begrudge their emplyees and their families a proper share of the company success.
Yes I have become very cynical about the lip service given today about how important people are and see how quickly they can be cast aside or penalized when the compnay performance is less than expected."
That's life. There is no better method of distribution of capital than the free market. You think if government came in and took over Poly Cello it would be much better? Do you think governments have respect for the individual and the pain caused by losing your job? No. They don't. Businesses can't keep as many people employed when they're losing money; and who would want a business which is losing money to stay in business anyway? That its losing money signifies that its a drag on our economy. People will lose their job and need to move on as businesses fail and new ones are built. I fully expect that RIM will at some point lay me off. That's the only reason I continue to go to school. I will need a plan B after this, and everyone should have a plan B. Job security is nice, but its not absolute.
"There may be times when benefits ned to be cut and wages frozen and bonuses slashed to keep a company solvent but all to ofetn the pain is not truly felt at all levels. This is the salt in the wound."
And this, above all else, is the importance of gaining a good education and learning how to work hard at an early age. The higher up the ladder you are, the less you will suffer. There is no remedy to this. My entire generation has missed this lesson. There are those in the world that have not and are working their asses off to make sure they don't hurt when others do. This why the center of the world is shifting to India and China.
"See, I don't think managers sit in their offices and think to themselves "How can I screw over the 12,000 employees in this company for my own benefit"...you do, because you're a biased fool who doesn't understand human nature"
I am not sure who you are directing this at but I will assume you do not mean me. I spent 17 years as a manager and when I had to roll up my sleeves and join the troops I did so. I was often criticized not only by fellow managers but senior managers!
No they do not sit in their offices and think about screwing over their employees. It is worse then that. Arrogance does not even allow most to even consider the right thing to do. It is like they lost their ability to think on a compassionate level in an attempt to assmiliate to what they belive the owners/ senior managers want.
"Us? Well, our union workers are pissed off because companies can't afford to pay them 6 figures so that they can live in $350,000 dollar houses and drive 3 vehicles, travel to resorts and just suck up life. I'm sorry, who's greedy? Union wages are obscene and its no wonder the auto companies are moving out of the US and Canada."
This I agree is the ruination of our economy and our society. Consumption for the sake of consumption and the only thought to get the best deal. That attitude is ruining our society and destroying our environment.
"That's life. There is no better method of distribution of capital than the free market. You think if government came in and took over Poly Cello it would be much better? Do you think governments have respect for the individual and the pain caused by losing your job? No. They don't. Businesses can't keep as many people employed when they're losing money;"
Sadly what you say is true. The free market leaves the righteous distribution of wealth to be determoined by those who have the wealth. Morality and right and wrong are not part of the equation. Capitalism harnesses our natural tendency to greed and as much as we think we are civilized beings the result proves we are not yet at a civilized level. I do not speak to government I speak to the mind of humans and the sense of right and wrong
"And this, above all else, is the importance of gaining a good education and learning how to work hard at an early age. The higher up the ladder you are, the less you will suffer. There is no remedy to this."
The quest for knowledge should not be tied to the financial quality of life or ability to consume. Sadly it is, as no value is placed on thought, only the invention of a consumable product or method to entice others to purchase
. Once again , as long as the dogma of society places value only on having and consuming there will be no percieved value on the more ethereal aspects of life.
"This why the center of the world is shifting to India and China.'
Only from a producing/consuming point of view. Which is why we cannot by a Canadian made Tv. Our own greed!
"I am not sure who you are directing this at but I will assume you do not mean me. I spent 17 years as a manager and when I had to roll up my sleeves and join the troops I did so. I was often criticized not only by fellow managers but senior managers!"
I was directed toward Chris. I assumed your experience working within a business would off you a deeper understanding.
"This I agree is the ruination of our economy and our society. Consumption for the sake of consumption and the only thought to get the best deal. That attitude is ruining our society and destroying our environment."
No Dad. The unions are just getting what's owed to them!
"Morality and right and wrong are not part of the equation."
Yes. It is. I completely disagree. You have fired someone before. Did Poly Cello and yourself not do everything possible for that person?
Do you know whats morally wrong? Expecting everyone else to carry your weight when you lose your job. Expecting money will be there that was stole from others for you to suck away at while you sit on your ass at home. Individuals have a responsibility to save a percentage of their income to support themselves if times get tough. The few that cannot should be helped out by their neighbors and family; but never should someone be stolen from to give to someone else.
There's nothing immoral about letting someone go as long all expectations with that employee when hired were met.
"The quest for knowledge should not be tied to the financial quality of life or ability to consume."
Not only your quest for knowledge, but how well you learn to USE that knowledge in manners which benefit society. That's why the Jim Balisillie's and Bill Gates' of the world are so wealthy; not only did they have the knowledge, they knew how best to use it. And it aboslutely should affect your quality of life.
"Only from a producing/consuming point of view. Which is why we cannot by a Canadian made Tv. Our own greed!"
No, from all points of view.
"Only from a producing/consuming point of view. Which is why we cannot by a Canadian made Tv. Our own greed!"
We can't buy a Canadian TV, because we are too stupid to limit the greed of business.
"I was directed toward Chris. I assumed your experience working within a business would off you a deeper understanding."
Being paid slave wages is not a "deeper understanding".
"No Dad. The unions are just getting what's owed to them!"
Nope. The unions are getting screwed by an amoral business sector that values profits over people.
"Do you know whats morally wrong? Expecting everyone else to carry your weight when you lose your job."
No, paying slave wages is immoral.
"Expecting money will be there that was stole from others for you to suck away at while you sit on your ass at home."
Taxes are not stealing.
"Individuals have a responsibility to save a percentage of their income to support themselves if times get tough."
Individuals should not expect to paid just enough to live, Josh. That sort of economy is immoral and will lead to revolution.
"The few that cannot should be helped out by their neighbors and family; but never should someone be stolen from to give to someone else."
Again, taxes are not stealing and those "few" have, historically, not been helped. In fact, they are not being helped right now. They are called "bums".
"Not only your quest for knowledge, but how well you learn to USE that knowledge in manners which benefit society. That's why the Jim Balisillie's and Bill Gates' of the world are so wealthy; not only did they have the knowledge, they knew how best to use it. And it aboslutely should affect your quality of life."
Pish-posh. Gates entered the world on a golden spoon and got luck with access and timing. There were many business people working toward what Gates achieved. Don't fool yourself. Moreover, they are not wealth because of their "intelligence" or "hard work", they are wealthy because they were one of many hard working, intelligent business people who had the right chance to charge whatever they wanted because no one, at that time, was keeping the system in check.
"No Dad. The unions are just getting what's owed to them!"
Unions are a symptom of a bigger problem. People are not really viewed by senior managers as any more than a cost. Few companies actually in fact see and treat there employees as partners and make an emotional investment in them and thier failies. Thus unions became necessary evils.
For the most part today law has replaced most of the union needs but the fact that unions and laws are needed to protect people should tell us the true nature of capitalism.
This reality in countries that consider themselves purveyors of Christian ethics!
I read a story about a man in the Boston area that owned a textile mill back in the 60's I think. The mill burned down and of course the employees expected to lose their jobs. He kept everyone of 3000 employees on full payroll until the mill was rebuilt. He decimated his personal wealth. When asked why he would do such a thing he responded by asking if we would not use all our savings to assist family in dire need? These people were his family and without them personal wealth had no real value.
No unions or laws can legislate morality.
"Yes. It is. I completely disagree. You have fired someone before. Did Poly Cello and yourself not do everything possible for that person?"
Companies today are less concerned about the person and more concerend if the legalities are followed. Yes I have let people go and have spent hours in meetings discussing the legal requirements. Concern for the individual and their families while is given some lip service is a small aspect.
But more to the point is how employees are viewed even if they are stellar contributing people.
We recently lost a sales rep who had been with us since the early 1990's and was intrumental in our success in the US frozen food business. He made a huge contribution and late in his career, a we went into new product lines he became viewed as unproductive. He was made to feel uncomfortable in his position to the point he had to resign.
His huge and vital contribution was not part of any consideration for his value. The effect on his family was never a concern. Attempting to harness his considerable talents and focus on his strengths to allow him an honorable retirement was not part of the equation.
Like an unproductive older piece of equipment he was cast aside. This by a company that prides itself in the treatment of its employees.
Bottom line capitalism allows no room for human compassionate capitalism.
"Nope. The unions are getting screwed by an amoral business sector that values profits over people."
Unions and management are both like competing packs of jackals fighting over the carcass of the average person who is locked inside this vicious cycle that leaves no room for humanity. Just dollar signs.
I have to say, this is all so much more interesting with a third person involved.
But also takes so much more time and work to respond.
"I have to say, this is all so much more interesting with a third person involved."
You should try it with 453 other people by joining a debate forum. Talkrational.org is good.
"Unions and management are both like competing packs of jackals fighting over the carcass of the average person who is locked inside this vicious cycle that leaves no room for humanity. Just dollar signs."
No, the average person is a lazy bonehead who doesn't appreciate the average wage and benefits that the unions have fought to achieve. They sit on their asses while the union members do the dirty work of protecting their civilized wages and benefits.
"Unions and management are both like competing packs of jackals fighting over the carcass of the average person who is locked inside this vicious cycle that leaves no room for humanity. Just dollar signs."
The Southern Baptists gave up their Christianity when they started defending "free market" capitalism.
"I read a story about a man in the Boston area that owned a textile mill back in the 60's I think. The mill burned down and of course the employees expected to lose their jobs. He kept everyone of 3000 employees on full payroll until the mill was rebuilt. He decimated his personal wealth. When asked why he would do such a thing he responded by asking if we would not use all our savings to assist family in dire need? These people were his family and without them personal wealth had no real value.
No unions or laws can legislate morality."
And that is the problem with "personal responsibility" and "moral systems". The good owners are the exception, not the rule. Walmart and the scores of companies that moved to China to pay 30 cents an hour prove that.
"No, the average person is a lazy bonehead who doesn't appreciate the average wage and benefits that the unions have fought to achieve. They sit on their asses while the union members do the dirty work of protecting their civilized wages and benefits."
Wow cynical to the max! I do not beleive any of it. Most people are not lazy.
Unions are a symptom of the larger problem and should never had been necessary in "civilized" societies. greed made them necessary evils and then of course they themselves become greedy and corrupt.
Everything starts at the personal responsibility level. Every thought and thus every act.
"You should try it with 453 other people by joining a debate forum."
Not that many people have that much to say that interests me!
yes this is better than the global warming issue that diverted you guys from important issues!
"And that is the problem with "personal responsibility" and "moral systems". The good owners are the exception, not the rule"
The above may be true but it remains that personal responabilities and morals should be our bedrock,our foundation for our actions as individuals.
"Wow cynical to the max! I do not beleive any of it. Most people are not lazy."
Sorry, when it comes to organizing, confronting the powers that be, people are lazy. People are also very, very lazy when it comes to intellectual matters. They go after what is easy, which is why Ayn Rand got a food hold.
Also, it is not "cynical". Cynicism is defined as a contempt. I am not being contemptuous. This is real, cold fact, which Josh is a prime example..
"The above may be true but it remains that personal responabilities and morals should be our bedrock,our foundation for our actions as individuals."
Indeed. Which is why living in a free society is the most productive. Individuals are forced to be responsible for their actions.
"Indeed. Which is why living in a free society is the most productive. Individuals are forced to be responsible for their actions."
Forced into poverty on the propaganda of "freedom", you meant. Freedom is definitely not the same as capitalism.
"Forced into poverty on the propaganda of "freedom", you meant. Freedom is definitely not the same as capitalism."
Yes, the free people of America were completely forced into poverty during the 19th century while their standard of living quadrupled.
"Yes, the free people of America were completely forced into poverty during the 19th century while their standard of living quadrupled."
Let us visit a bit of history, Josh:
http://www.localhistories.org/19thcentengland.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Housing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Organisation_of_labour
Read "Poverty in the 19th Century" here:
http://www.localhistories.org/povhist.html
"The worst thing about poverty in the 19th century was the callous attitude of many Victorians. They were great believers in 'self-help'. That is they thought everyone should be self-reliant and not look to other people for help. They also believed that anyone could become successful through sheer hard work and thrift. Logically that meant that if you were poor it was your fault. Many Victorians (not all) felt that the poor were to blame for their poverty."
"At the end of the 19th century more than 25% of the population was living at or below subsistence level. Surveys indicated that around 10% were very poor and could not afford even basic necessities such as enough nourishing food. Between 15% and 20% had just enough money to live on (provided they did not lose their job or have to take time off work through illness)."
Also read "Poverty in the 20th Century"
Since America was abundant in natural resources, unused land, and more unused land, it can not be used as a template for objective social analysis. Its wealth has been and still is based, partially but significantly, on its unused resources and unmaximized land. Therefore, the social conditions of 19th century England are much more important to understanding the history of capitalism than the social conditions of America. Finally,
Can you show statistics that can 1) show that income quadrupled in the lower 50% of the population, and if so, can you show that this increase is not the result of resources and land wealth? I don't think you can.
Are you honestly proposing an average man at the end of the 19th century was not living a much higher standard of living than at the beginning of the 19th century?
Sure, why wouldn't I? Why, do you have data to prove me wrong?
"According to the same 2008 report cited above, wavefront-guided LASIK with IntraLase flap technology costs an average of $2,357 per eye ($4,714 for both eyes), while the average cost for standard LASIK with a microkeratome flap is $1,694 per eye ($3,388 for both eyes)."
http://www.lasiksurgerynews.com/news/How-much-does-LASIK-cost.shtml
Methinks your argument isn't making any sense. Methinks the regulation of licenses for eye surgery and related machines in Canada has kept the prices lower; that is, if your quote is correct.
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