Furlong Colony 1: The World is Blue
F U R L O N G C O L O N Y 1
A sporadic update of the important effects unfolding in Furlong Colony 1.

Friday, October 31, 2008

The World is Blue

20 comments:

Josh said...

Oh god, I know you're on the left, but do you have to support these war-mongers?

Chris said...

I don't support warmongers. I support those who support sane economic policies. Besides, it was the Republicans who got us into Iraq, not the Democrats. It is their fault.

Chris said...

Also, I'm not exactly supporting Obama. Just passing on an interesting survey.

Josh said...

you are supporting the democratic party, and yes, they are warmongers, they fund the war, they support the war, they have allowed the war, and they failed to do their constitutional duty and impeach the president. Nancy Pelosi has actively supported Bush policies while pretending not to and Obama has stood on the sidelines and played it safe.

Also, democratic leadership has allowed torture to occur in Guantanamo Bay without protest.

Obama supports increasing troop levels by 40,000 soldiers in Afghanistan. This is warmongering AND poor economic policy.

Feel free to attack Republicans. I will not defend them. As an individual Ron Paul is using the republican party as a platform to voice his position and it has worked very well for him. He neither votes along republican party line nor does he support John McCain, and he has in the past had to run again democratic rivals that are supported by the same party he is part of. During the republican convention he was allowed very limited access and had to be escorted with party officials wherever he went. He has been very selective over which candidates for congress and senate he endorses. You cannot attack him for trying to change the way of a party that has done as much harm as the Republicans, and I have never heard him say he is proud of being part of the republican party.

Once you start posting this pro-democrat, anti-republican drivel, you become part of the system that has allowed the most powerful and abusive government in the world to commit some of the most gruesome crimes against humanity.

I have no trouble with you supporting Bernie Sanders, or any pro-peace leftist that has some respect for civil liberties, such as Dennis Kucinich. But to advertise praise of this false-messiah Obama and idiot Biden (who wants to allow corporations to destroy net neutrality) is offensive to your own intelligence.

Josh said...

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=3270

Chris said...

"you are supporting the democratic party, and yes, they are warmongers,"

No, the Republican party are the warmongers. They warmongered us into the Iraq war and were planning to invade North Korea.

"they fund the war, they support the war, they have allowed the war, and they failed to do their constitutional duty and impeach the president. Nancy Pelosi has actively supported Bush policies while pretending not to and Obama has stood on the sidelines and played it safe."

They also mercilessly attacked the Republican's reasons for going into Iraq, completely discrediting them. Why would they do that?

This is one of the issues I agree with the Democrats with: once you invade a country, destroy its insfrastructure, and political system, you don't just suddenly pull out. It just makes things worse.

"Also, democratic leadership has allowed torture to occur in Guantanamo Bay without protest."

Sorry, there has been lots of protest.

"Obama supports increasing troop levels by 40,000 soldiers in Afghanistan. This is warmongering AND poor economic policy."

I agree with Afghanistan. Obama wants to refocus the reason for going to war in the first place: catching Osama. It's a good strategy for eventually pulling out of Iraq.

"Feel free to attack Republicans. I will not defend them. As an individual Ron Paul is using the republican party as a platform to voice his position and it has worked very well for him. He neither votes along republican party line nor does he support John McCain, and he has in the past had to run again democratic rivals that are supported by the same party he is part of. During the republican convention he was allowed very limited access and had to be escorted with party officials wherever he went. He has been very selective over which candidates for congress and senate he endorses. You cannot attack him for trying to change the way of a party that has done as much harm as the Republicans, and I have never heard him say he is proud of being part of the republican party."

Sorry, he lends credibility to the Republican party's platform, and therefore he is complicit.

"Once you start posting this pro-democrat, anti-republican drivel, you become part of the system that has allowed the most powerful and abusive government in the world to commit some of the most gruesome crimes against humanity."

I'm not a sixties theorist, Josh. I believe we are all part of the system, whether we like it, know it, or think we are outside it.

"I have no trouble with you supporting Bernie Sanders, or any pro-peace leftist that has some respect for civil liberties, such as Dennis Kucinich. But to advertise praise of this false-messiah Obama and idiot Biden (who wants to allow corporations to destroy net neutrality) is offensive to your own intelligence."

Lol? Where did I do that? One post was about which candidate the world thinks is better (at least the Internt world people), and the other was merely a video where Biden and Colbert level a right wing nutcase who thinks welfare liberalism is socialism. She is craZy. No where did I say I supported Obama. So whose intelligence has been insulted?

Josh said...

Your illusion that the democrats haven't supported this thing all the way through is an insult to your intelligence.

The founders had to deal with stateless enemies when they wrote the constitution: they would issue a letter of marquee. That should be done today on Osama, and then he should be brought to trial.

There is no need for any foreign military to step foot on Afghan land.

As well, the majority of democrats voted to give Bush the power to go to war, they voted for the patriot act, they voted for FISA, and they voted for the bailout. All of these actions take from the poor and the middle class their wealth and their rights. Pelosi took impeachment off the table regardless of what Bush and Cheney have done.

Yes, democrats talk a lot, but actions speak louder than words, and if you look at actions, they are as much at fault as the republicans.

There is a wing of the democratic party that is not so awful. However they are not the one's running the show and are not even close to it.

Chris said...

"Your illusion that the democrats haven't supported this thing all the way through is an insult to your intelligence."

Not at all. I believe that things are much more complex than simple conspiracies. I think when the Republicans controlled congress and the executive that the Democrats compromised a lot on affairs of the state to protect the welfare state. That's what I think.

"The founders had to deal with stateless enemies when they wrote the constitution: they would issue a letter of marquee. That should be done today on Osama, and then he should be brought to trial.

There is no need for any foreign military to step foot on Afghan land."

That's fine for the politics of 1776, but not for 2008. Our army is a professional army. In legitimate situations it needs to be exercised to keep it in check.

"As well, the majority of democrats voted to give Bush the power to go to war,"

Josh, are you on crack? 126 house Democrats opposed the Iraq Resolution, while 82 supported it. If 126 isn't a majority, I don't know what is. In the senate 21 Democratic senators voted against the resolution, while 29 voted for it. That's not much of a majority when one takes into account the enrtire congress.

In my opinion, there are some Democrat senators that need to make the jump over to the Republican party.

they voted for the patriot act, they voted for FISA, and they voted for the bailout. All of these actions take from the poor and the middle class their wealth and their rights. Pelosi took impeachment off the table regardless of what Bush and Cheney have done.

Yes, democrats talk a lot, but actions speak louder than words, and if you look at actions, they are as much at fault as the republicans.

There is a wing of the democratic party that is not so awful. However they are not the one's running the show and are not even close to it.

"they voted for the patriot act,"

62 plus three Republicans voted against the Patriot Act. Those are my Democrats, sometimes.

"and they voted for the bailout."

I agree with the bailout. 9000 banks failed in the wake of farm failures due to the drought. I think if there had been a bailout in 1930 the GD would not have been as bad.

"All of these actions take from the poor and the middle class their wealth and their rights."

Some of them do.

"Pelosi took impeachment off the table regardless of what Bush and Cheney have done."

Smart move considering the number of Republicans in the senate and house. Better to save impeachment hearings for the big issues.

"Yes, democrats talk a lot, but actions speak louder than words, and if you look at actions, they are as much at fault as the republicans."

Nope. Almost all Republicans voted for the Patriot Act and for the War in Iraq. Therefore, the Democrats are definitely not "just as complict as the Republicans".

Josh said...

"I believe that things are much more complex than simple conspiracies. I think when the Republicans controlled congress and the executive that the Democrats compromised a lot on affairs of the state to protect the welfare state. That's what I think."

Lol, lets kill 500,000 iraqi civilians and bankrupt our nation so we can keep in place our medicare thats also bankrupting our nation!

"That's fine for the politics of 1776, but not for 2008. Our army is a professional army. In legitimate situations it needs to be exercised to keep it in check."

Mm-hmm keep what in check? Those evil brown people? Or the army? Does not every generation feel their army is a professional army that can solve all problems?

"In the senate 21 Democratic senators voted against the resolution, while 29 voted for it."

Senate majority matters most, especially when the leaders of the party (Clinton, Biden, Reid) are the ones that voted for it.

"Smart move considering the number of Republicans in the senate and house. Better to save impeachment hearings for the big issues."

It doesn't get much bigger than leading an invasion and maintaining an occupation of a foreign territory.

"Nope. Almost all Republicans voted for the Patriot Act and for the War in Iraq. Therefore, the Democrats are definitely not "just as complict as the Republicans"."

The leadership of the party vote alongside the republicans.

Chris said...

"Lol, lets kill 500,000 iraqi civilians and bankrupt our nation so we can keep in place our medicare thats also bankrupting our nation!"

Nope, the war is bankrupting the nation. The budget was balanced before WITH a trillion dollars of social services and can be balanced again. Praise Newt!

Anyway, that's how politics works. You protect what you think is most important based upon the amount of power you have. And, yes, when it comes to economics, Iraqi citizens are secondary. That's the truth of sovereignty-based, anarchistic international governance.

"Mm-hmm keep what in check? Those evil brown people? Or the army? Does not every generation feel their army is a professional army that can solve all problems?"

The generals, soldiers, etc. Big militaries are scary. Rome fell to its own armies. Legitimate issues like Afghanistan allow them to get a little exercise.

"Senate majority matters most, especially when the leaders of the party (Clinton, Biden, Reid) are the ones that voted for it."

Sorry, resolutions can not be passed without the house. They are both important.

"It doesn't get much bigger than leading an invasion and maintaining an occupation of a foreign territory."

Bread winners making 9 dollars an hour will alwaysbe a more important issue than war in a country where only a small minority wants to protest. That small minority is, of course, the left. The libertarians just want to sit on there asses and whinge.

"The leadership of the party vote alongside the republicans."

Nope. A faction of the democratic party. There is no such thing as leadership. It shifts and changes with each new election.

Josh said...

"The budget was balanced before WITH a trillion dollars of social services and can be balanced again. Praise Newt!"

The budget was balanced before the dot.com bubble and the housing bubble, and before the US lost hundreds of thousands of high paying manufacturing jobs. The balanced budget was due to phony tax revenue coming in from an inflated economy.

"And, yes, when it comes to economics, Iraqi citizens are secondary. That's the truth of sovereignty-based, anarchistic international governance."

And this is OK with you? My perspective is that the government shouldn't have the power and choice over whether an Iraqi civilian lives or an out of work american gets a welfare check. My perspective is that the Iraqi citizen and out of work American choose their own paths in life.

"Legitimate issues like Afghanistan allow them to get a little exercise."

We'll let our big scary dog out to attack a few innocent civilians so he doesn't get wrestless inside and bite me...

"Sorry, resolutions can not be passed without the house. They are both important."

You can't ignore the influence of the leadership and the direction they take the party.

"Bread winners making 9 dollars an hour will alwaysbe a more important issue than war in a country where only a small minority wants to protest. That small minority is, of course, the left. The libertarians just want to sit on there asses and whinge."

Yea. What Ron Paul did over the past year was sit on his ass. He didn't do anything to show their is a portion of the right willing to protest the war. Nope, nothing at all. In fact, I'm sure all 12,000 people that showed up to his Rally for the Republic next door to the RNC were just sitting on their asses as well. No matter how many people protest, you can not argue war is right. This is the problem with democracies where the government is not restrained. A majority of wrongs can condone very big wrongs.

"A faction of the democratic party. There is no such thing as leadership. It shifts and changes with each new election."

LOL! HARDLY! Re-election rates to congress and the senate are still in the 80%-90% range. We'll see where its at on Nov. 4, but I bet it doesn't go lower than 75%, and thats with a 10-20% approval rate of congress.

Sheldon Furlong said...

Discussing the differences between Republican and Democrats is about as usufull as debating the number of angels that can dance on the head of a needle!

Both ar the same. There is no visible difference. B.O. will not stop the war and he may start one elsewhere in his time. The arrogance of the American dream marchs on!

You two do seem to enjoy discussing such trivial matters however futile.

Josh said...

"Discussing the differences between Republican and Democrats is about as usufull as debating the number of angels that can dance on the head of a needle!"

This is the point I'm trying to make. We just end up arguing about this partisan bull because Chris thinks the Democrats are a lesser evil (which, even if they were, they're still evil). Listen to the audio i have on my blog of the interview between Lew Rockwell and Naomi Wolf, interesting stuff.

Douglas Porter said...

"The budget was balanced before the dot.com bubble and the housing bubble, and before the US lost hundreds of thousands of high paying manufacturing jobs. The balanced budget was due to phony tax revenue coming in from an inflated economy."

It can be done again. And if not fully, they can cut homeland security and the war.

"And this is OK with you? My perspective is that the government shouldn't have the power and choice over whether an Iraqi civilian lives or an out of work american gets a welfare check. My perspective is that the Iraqi citizen and out of work American choose their own paths in life."

6773 1990 dollars in 1920. A return to poverty would cause many more problems that it is causing now. Besides, American imperlialism is not new to the 21st century and wasn't new in the 20th century. That part of fascist America has a long history stretching back even to the beginning.

"We'll let our big scary dog out to attack a few innocent civilians so he doesn't get wrestless inside and bite me..."

I seem to be more disturbed about the American military personnel stationed on American soil than you.

"You can't ignore the influence of the leadership and the direction they take the party."

And you can't ignore the significant dissent and the entire house of representitives.

"Yea. What Ron Paul did over the past year was sit on his ass. He didn't do anything to show their is a portion of the right willing to protest the war. Nope, nothing at all. In fact, I'm sure all 12,000 people that showed up to his Rally for the Republic next door to the RNC were just sitting on their asses as well. No matter how many people protest, you can not argue war is right. This is the problem with democracies where the government is not restrained. A majority of wrongs can condone very big wrongs."

Sorry, a political rally is not the same as a political protest. And I said LibertarianS, not Ron Paul.

"LOL! HARDLY! Re-election rates to congress and the senate are still in the 80%-90% range. We'll see where its at on Nov. 4, but I bet it doesn't go lower than 75%, and thats with a 10-20% approval rate of congress."

Power relations, Josh. They change even among individuals.







"Discussing the differences between Republican and Democrats is about as usufull as debating the number of angels that can dance on the head of a needle!

Both ar the same. There is no visible difference. B.O. will not stop the war and he may start one elsewhere in his time. The arrogance of the American dream marchs on!

You two do seem to enjoy discussing such trivial matters however futile."


Best to go through the entire argument ad infinitum. Then you'll be able argue such more easily off the cuff. I've been doing this for over 8 years, and now it takes no time to fire off these sentences.

Douglas Porter said...

"This is the point I'm trying to make. We just end up arguing about this partisan bull because Chris thinks the Democrats are a lesser evil (which, even if they were, they're still evil). Listen to the audio i have on my blog of the interview between Lew Rockwell and Naomi Wolf, interesting stuff."

I never did like Naomi Wolf that much. And I don't like people who call themselves "progressives". She's pretty knowledgeable on the Media and the anti-corporate movement, but on actual left-wing issues she is pretty light. For example, as Jamie and I listen to this interview between her and Rockwell, I didn't hear her say anything about the millions of jobs lost since 2000. MILLIONS. NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS> when Rockwell inevitably brought up the FED.

Hmmm, not sure where Sanders was getting his information, but I'm now finding estimates of about 3 million manufacturing jobs lost since 2000 and about 800 thousand professional jobs lost. That still doesn't change my argument, but it does put things in better perspective.

Josh said...

"they can cut homeland security and the war."

YES! Exactly where they should start cutting!

Josh said...

"American imperlialism is not new to the 21st century and wasn't new in the 20th century. That part of fascist America has a long history stretching back even to the beginning."

And this is a good thing?

"I seem to be more disturbed about the American military personnel stationed on American soil than you."

The military should be much smaller than what it is and it should be protecting the borders. I would be very disturbed if american personnel were patrolling the streets. You seem to be saying war is ok because it allows the military to be used. Right...great justification...

Douglas Porter said...

"YES! Exactly where they should start cutting"

But not social welfare programs.

"And this is a good thing?"

No, but it is secondary to economic issues, and I mean secondary to mean second... then comes abortion..

"The military should be much smaller than what it is and it should be protecting the borders. I would be very disturbed if american personnel were patrolling the streets. You seem to be saying war is ok because it allows the military to be used. Right...great justification..."

Well, let me see.. The current military size is the result of WWII and the Cold War. WWII has ended and the Cold War exists only in the minds of the far right. We should be downsizing the military, but we're not! Maybe because the libertarians are part of the Republican party? Maybe? Is that the reason? Do we still have such a huge military, because the libertards are more worried about social welfare programs than the military industrial complex? I think it is. 8% of the population is libertarian, and a significant portion votes independent or Republican. SHAME ON YOU LIBERTARIANS!

Josh said...

"But not social welfare programs."

No, but allow people to opt out.

"No, but it is secondary to economic issues, and I mean secondary to mean second... then comes abortion.."

I dunno, I'd rather have a poor economy and have my government stop murdering people on my behalf, with my tax money.

"8% of the population is libertarian, and a significant portion votes independent or Republican. SHAME ON YOU LIBERTARIANS!"

You really need to give up this labeling thing. Just because Ron Paul is a republican, doesn't mean he supports all other thoughts of republicans. Just because Rockwell is Libertarian, doesn't mean he supports all other thoughts of Libertarians.

Douglas Porter said...

"No, but allow people to opt out."

If you don't like democracy, move to China! Those social programs are the result of collective, democratic choice.

"I dunno, I'd rather have a poor economy and have my government stop murdering people on my behalf, with my tax money."

I'd rather have both, so why don't you libertarians stop supporting the Republican party?

"You really need to give up this labeling thing. Just because Ron Paul is a republican, doesn't mean he supports all other thoughts of republicans. Just because Rockwell is Libertarian, doesn't mean he supports all other thoughts of Libertarians."

Sorry, he is putting his political support behind the Republican party. That's de facto support of their policies. You don't want to admit it? But it is true. Many, many libertarians vote Republican because of Paul's actions.

 
F U R L O N G C O L O N Y 1
A sporadic update of the important events unfolding in Furlong Colony 1.